paude 2020-04-21 18:10
You know, I really liked the idea of the game! I also found the tutorial room a little bit difficult, but it's a very nice entry after all! GJ!
Foon → Ludum Dare Explorer → LD46 → Save the torch!
By eduardogacn
| Category | Rank | Score | Count | |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Overall | 1203 | 3.50 | 123 | |
| Fun | 1099 | 3.38 | 123 | |
| Innovation | 1022 | 3.38 | 124 | |
| Theme | 1053 | 3.73 | 124 | |
| Humor | 1341 | 2.74 | 110 | |
| Mood | 1277 | 3.36 | 119 |
You know, I really liked the idea of the game! I also found the tutorial room a little bit difficult, but it's a very nice entry after all! GJ!
oh. Very good game! A lucky entry! I'm making videos for this YT channel, https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2YCW5s25G3r600RbE-hgTA . Can i find your game also on indiexpo website? We are linked with it. I will be very happy to include your game in the next videos!!
@paude Thanks very much for your comment. I'm glad to know that you were able to enjoy my game after all.
@torh Thank you for your comments and the great offer! I would be very happy if you could include my game in your next videos, tomorrow I will upload it to the indiexpo website. :dog:
Very fun, but very hard at least for me :) But I really like the mood and music. The throwing mechanic is interesting, but it is hard to know how it flies. Some sort of indicator would be nice.
I like this game, it's a very interesting idea too. Only real critique I have is maybe implementing some sort of invulnerability period after taking damage so you don't get scenarios of dying quicker than you can react, but other than that good game overall.
Hello, the game seems promising but what about Linux boys support? Are the html5 / Linux builds planned soon? Thanks in advance!
This game was really hard!
I could barely make it past the first level... then when I finally did, I died on the second level and then promptly got booted back to the first. Not cool, man.
I'd argue that the current gameplay design doesn't have a real direction, thus preventing synergy between the mechanics and causing overall enjoyment to suffer. Is this game trying to be a speedrun platformer? A precision platformer? An action/combat platformer? Maybe some combination? If I were you I'd embrace the stressful, time-limited aspect of the game, and adjust gameplay to reflect that. These adjustments might look like, say, reducing enemy health so it only takes one hit to kill them (at least for the basic enemies), while also making the flame burn out faster. Not only would this speed up the game's overall pace, it would also empower the player a bit and make them feel less like they're just tossing pebbles around :wink:
At first, I was hit when I tried to pick up the enemy's falling flames, so I thought it was a trap.But when I played a few times, I found that the flame was used to replenish the torch, but when I tried the next time, it hit me again.I feel there is something wrong here
you are welcome, @eduardogacn !
It's really hard! I thought the visuals were very cute and the mood was perfect. Nice BGM also
Can't beat the boss in the first level but I enjoyed it. I think preventing the enemy from stepping on the torch was fun but I didn't like running out of time.
@ room606 Hi, thanks for your comments.
Linux and mac support today: D
@eternalxp thanks for your feedback.
There is a new update that improves the difficulty curve. Good idea about the indicator :)
@alaska thanks for your feedback.
I did a new update that improves that and the difficulty curve :dog:
@cheesepencil thanks.
There is a new update that improves the difficulty curve :D
@eva thanks for playing my game. There is a new update that improves the difficulty curve.
@torh I just uploaded my game to indiexpo :D
https://www.indiexpo.net/es/search?search%5Bauthor%5D=Eduardo+Garcia
You did a good job with the update. Keep it up!
It’s a great game, with beautiful graphics, music and a smooth play.
It took me a while to understand that I must hold the torch in my hand so that I can pick up the little flames. Especially as the death message was saying I died because I didn’t keep the flame alive.
I think some of the assets have different scaling filtering. Some are pixel perfect, others are linear scaled (smooth).
It is a cool game! Visuals are great and gameplay as well, it is a bit hard, but overall it's awesome, it had a great mood as well! Congrats for this entry :ok_hand:
Like everyone else has mentioned, this game has amazing graphics and looks great. The background music also fits in well with the visual aesthetics that you have going on. Personally, I do feel like the player character is a bit hard to control but that may just be me. I like the combat system and the enemies' ability to explode into flames that can hurt you even after death. It made the game a little bit more difficult, but it's difficulty that I can appreciate. Overall, really great work for this jam!
Well, this is a very slick and polish presentation so congratulation for that! However, I think there is a difficulty curve problem. I tried many times to defeat the red skull at the level one, but in the end, nerves broke before his health. Imho this "boss" is too early. Depends on player's skill of course. Very good job overall!
Really nice game, but even though you've unticked the graphics category I think you should acknowledge your graphical sources. The enemies are clearly from [Super Crate Box](https://thewretchedryanenglish.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/supercratebox.png).
great game! but why everytime i died i start from level 0 again?
thanks for your comments, at the end of the game I give the graphic credits, including the enemies, but I think I will add them here in the description anyway
It's fun to see Super Crate Box enemies - a real nostalgia hit. Yoour game is cool! I particularly liked the layout of the levels (that I got to - I wasn't very good at it)
@cristi-mihai Thank you. The truth is that I could not give the game much time, I did not think I would be able to participate, but I decided to do it a couple of hours before the event ended.
There is still much to fix.
@dextreon Thank you very much, the game really did it in a few hours, I know that there are still several things to fix, including the difficulty. I need to see videos of people playing, the game is too easy for me xD
@saltfactory-studio Thanks a lot!
@jonathan-lorenz Thanks for your comments, many have told me that the game is quite difficult and I have already tried it so many times that I hardly ever lose ...
I will follow your advice and that of others and correct this :)
@royur To be honest the other 4 levels I did in the last 30 minutes before the jam time is over, I'll fix this so it doesn't get too difficult. :)
@gilesbgraham I really like Super Crate Box for their simplicity, I always use them as a base in my prototypes.
I plan to fix the difficulty curve a bit and add more levels in the future. ^_^
I love the art, and the gameplay is lots of fun.
Thank you @khaoz-fang :yum:
Fantastic Game! Good graphics and gameplay. Maybe you can implement some checkpoint so the player has not to restart from the very beginning.
@eduardogacn Just to clarify my comment, I don't think the level in question (level 1 with the boss) is too hard, I just think it happened too early. Cheers!
Really nice job! Impressive and detailed visuals that remind of me of Shantae games a lot :) Music is also absolutely great and I like how the unassuming tune keeps building up to new places while it loops. Mechanic is a lot of fun and the throw arcs, speed of the enemies etc. all feel finely adjusted. One of the better entries I've played!
I liked the concept and the unexpected boss. I found it a bit difficult to recover the torch sometimes, as I would just get quickly killed by the flames, maybe I did something wrong. Also i would have prefered jumping with the space key and throwing the torch with an utility key such as F or the left click.
Good entry :)
This is a really nice entry! I like the visuals a lot and the gameplay feels solid.
Quite a few games have been based around protecting a flame however I think your torch mechanic was far more interesting. I like how it's used as a weapon, but how use also makes it go out. Collecting the little flames left behind after killing an enemy was a nice addition to this mechanic and I like the fact you get burnt by those flames if you're not carrying the torch.
Overall a fun game and a great submission. Nice job, well done!
It is a very nice looking game! The torch throwing mechanic is cool and very easy to learn. So it works perfectly. Good job!
The game has plenty of potential. The art is great and the music is pleasant. I did find it a bit more difficult than necessary. For one, there's a ledge that's sticking out just a bit so if you jump up while next to it you hit the ledge, but other ledges aren't like this. I also find the boss fights after I've killed each enemy off putting since there's no longer any fire to collect (maybe have a few enemies spawn during the boss fight, or remove the timer from the flame pickups). Also, not really sure about this one, but having the flame pickups damage you if you weren't holding the torch felt unnecessary as well.
The visuals are great and the mechanics are very unique. It took me a second to understand how to play but once I did I had a lot of fun! The music loop resetting every level got a little annoying especially when you die.
Nice game with an interesting gameplay and a beautiful aesthetic. The main gameplay is clever and unusual. The torch throwing mechanic is easy to learn, but hard to master. Controls are smooth as expected. You did an amazing project with potential. I had fun playing. Well done ++
Awesome visuals and very tight controls. I found it a bit too hard but that's probably just me being a noob. Good job overall!
Maybe it's just me, but it felt very unintuitive to use space as pickup/throw, I always tried to press it to jump. Once I got more used to the controls I enjoyed it more, I wish the music was slightly less repetitive.
Thanks to all for your comments, today I will fix various aspects of the game taking into consideration everything that I have been told. :yum:
Really nice game! Found level 2 really hard although. Level one took some time to complete but really nice game! Also the controls took some time to learn, space normally being to jump and your Vertical axis didn't seem to work properly(I use WASD). The throwing mechanic was really nicely done. Loved the game!
Nice entry!
It was a bit weird to find a tutorial entry and then miss the fact that you had to collect the torch's embers afterwards. It took me a couple of hits to see why I had been damaged.
Despite that, the take on the theme is clear, the idea is simple but works well and even if the game may be difficult it has that arcade touch that makes it the good kind of challenge for me.
Good job!
Well made game. like the others pointed out, I am used to using space to jump and found controls a bit tricky but nothing that one cant get used to after a few trials.
Nice entry. Really interesting take on the theme. The can feel really challenging at some points, so I think it would benefit from some kind of checkpoint system, or invulnerability period as some others have mentioned. But overall, nice job on this! :clap:
I really enjoyed the aesthetics of the game and the soundtrack. I think it all helps maintain the player engaged. However, I think the game was a bit difficult. Sometimes I was out of life and the fire from the enemy explosion blew off to inconvenient spots so that it was impossible to retrieve the main fire. Anyhow, maybe this difficulty was indeed intentional. Keep up the great work! :)
Tricky with a nice mood. If I were to improve some things, the two top choices would be to stop the music from looping over when going to the next room and also not booting you back to the beginning upon death. Still a solid entry, though!
Nice game. I liked the music and the art. I feel like the sprite from the player its a little bit low pixel compared to the other sprites. Overall a really fun game. Good Job!
Honestly really impressed. Probably the most innovative entry I've seen yet!
Very nice game! I love the retro sounds and the graphics are very nice. Great Work!
I love this entry. Very well in the theme. The idea that you must take care of the fire, but use it as a weapon, and avoid to touch the fire shards if you don't have the fire in hand, that's veeery nice. Difficulty is perhaps a bit high. In the level 3 the fire go quickly down. But it's a very interesting feature. One time the fire was blocked up right in the corner after throwing it. Otherwise I don't see any problem. Smooth controls, good music. very very good job!
Loved the graphics and gameplay. Awesome game. I felt it a bit difficult for some reason I could get past third level. Also dying and starting from all over again felt a little annoying.
Cool game, graphics are really nice and the mechanics are fluid. The music too doesn't get grating or anything, it is comfortable to listen to! Not sure if its mentioned anywhere but the enemy sprite is from Super Crate Box. The only thing I don't like is being sent back to the very start after each death. But maybe that is the difficulty balance you were going for.
This was a really fun game to play and I really have to say that I loved the idea of using the fire against the enemies and that the enemies helped keep it alive.
The only thing which was a bit much in my opinion was that you started back at the beginning and had to do everything over again. Twas a bit much
But overall its a great game, great job!
Great idea man, good mood and love what you did for the theme.
Nice that the fire was both something to protect and the weapon. Some things were a bit annoying: the fact that the embers that dropped from enemies hurt the player when not holding the torch (very often the torch is close to where the enemy died), the fact that there were no invincibility frames, some ledges were overhanging a bit so you could get a bit stuck under them. Even though there were few levels, restarting the game from the beginning felt a bit punishing.
good
Nice game. It's really enjoyable and unforgiving. I like the music but it gets repetitive after a while. I noticed that the character graphic was a bit blurry. Most likely you can fix this by changing the filter mode on the image from bilinear to point. Overall, this was a pretty good game. Good job!
The art is really well done. I think just fixing up a few things with the platforming system could make it feel a lot better. The biggest thing I struggled with was not jumping when running off the edge of platforms. Our game got criticized for this a lot and I see now that it's worth fixing. If you make it so if the user presses jump within 0.2 seconds of leaving the platform it still lets them jump it makes the platforming feel much better. I think the overall concept of the game is fine. It could just use some general tightening up platforming wise.
Fire.png
Análise...
1 - Mecânicas, Aprendizado e Fluxo: Achei a mecânica muito interessante, pegar o fogo e arremessar contra os inimigos. Na prática é um pouco difícil pegar o fogo para jogar (notei também que a vida dos inimigos foi reduzida do GIF na página do jogo na LD46 para a minha sessão de jogo, acredito que tenha sido uma boa escolha). O pulo também é um pouco difícil, mas ficou interessante. Infelizmente a cada vez que se morre, deve-se começar o jogo todo do começo (isso é bem ruim). Sobre o aprendizado, devo dizer que entender como jogar e conseguir ser bom jogando são duas coisas diferentes neste jogo, hahahahah. O fluxo de jogo é mais próximo do difícil (ansiedade) do que do fácil de mais (tédio), senti-me desafiado cada vez mais (entretanto com a penalidade de morte tão severa (recomeçar tudo) eu não consegui experimentar além do "chefe" (inimigo vermelho) do terceiro estágio). Além de check-points entre estágios, creio que poderia ser implementada alguma chance de inimigos comuns deixarem cair recuperadores de vida (corações, poções, algo assim).
2 - Gráficos, Áudio e Narrativa: Os gráficos ficaram incrivelmente bonitos (ao meu ver), todos combinando bem (inclusive). A trilha sonora (ao que entendi, escolhida de fonte externa) combinou bem com o jogo (ao menos para não deixar ele no mudo); seria interessante se tivesse implementado o áudio de forma mais dinâmica (abaixando o volume fora da batalha, ou algo assim). A narrativa não me foi apresentada exatamente, eu seria um personagem que precisa sobreviver/passar o nível.
3 - Cultura: O jogo tem estética que permite encontrar nicho com maior facilidade. Partido do pressuposto que continuem o projeto, com maior polimento, trilha autoral, balanceamento e conteúdo; creio que o jogo se torne uma peça interessante de cultura para os nichos dele.
4 - Monetização: Com todo o polimento e balanceamento, acredito que possa ser vendido em stores como o Steam.
Analysis...
1 - Mechanics, Learning and Flow: I found the mechanics very interesting, catching the fire and throwing it at the enemies. In practice it is a little difficult to catch the fire to play (I also noticed that the enemies' lives were reduced from the GIF on the game page on LD46 for my game session, I believe it was a good choice). The jump is also a little difficult, but it was interesting. Unfortunately every time you die, you have to start the game all over from the beginning (this is really bad). Regarding learning, I must say that understanding how to play and being good at playing are two different things in this game, hahahahah. The flow of the game is closer to the difficult (anxiety) than the easy to more (boredom), I felt more and more challenged (however with the death penalty so severe (starting all over again) I could not try beyond the "boss" "(red enemy) of the third stage). In addition to checkpoints between stages, I believe that some chance could be implemented for common enemies to drop life retrievers (hearts, potions, something like that).
2 - Graphics, Audio and Narrative: The graphics were incredibly beautiful (in my view), all matching well (including). The soundtrack (as I understand it, chosen from an external source) combined well with the game (at least not to leave it mute); it would be interesting if you had implemented the audio more dynamically (lowering the volume outside the battle, or something). The narrative was not presented to me exactly, I would be a character who needs to survive / pass the level.
3 - Culture: The game has aesthetics that makes it easier to find a niche. It is based on the assumption that the project will continue, with greater polish, authorial trail, balance and content; I think the game will become an interesting piece of culture for his niches.
4 - Monetization: With all the polishing and balancing, I believe it can be sold in stores like Steam.
~~(ignore please, duplicated comment)~~
There's a lot to like about this game. The art is gorgeous and the mechanics are really interesting. Really, you did a great job. Because this is such a good entry, it deserves a honest review of some elements I did not enjoy:
* Jumping with up and picking-up/throwing with space is mind-bending to me, because I usually jump with space. It took me a couple of minutes to adjust. Jumping itself felt a bit too floaty.
* Small flames should not hurt the player. It's really unfair if your torch lands on a flame and you die when you try to pick it up.
* Restarting the whole game when dying was a bit annoying. Restarting the level would have been ok.
* You can't predict where the torch lands after hitting an enemy. If one of the fast enemies bumps it around all the time on a small platform you're basically bust.
* The music was a bit repetitive.
Don't get me wrong. It's a great entry nonetheless!
@zubspace Today I will release an update with all the feedback received to date.
The controls and the level reset is what I am most advised to change, so it is the first thing I will do.
I will also play a little with music and other things that have been advised.
Anyway, I'm glad the game was so well received, since I built it in about 4 hours of the last day of the jam (I planned not to participate for work)
@gustavo-christino I have seen your analysis in several games and I expected you to play mine haha.
Today I will release an update with all the feedback received. Improving the difficulty, adding lives from time to time and restart the levels when you lose.
With music you are very right, I will try to play with it so that it is not so monotonous.
Once again, thanks for playing my game.
(:
Look forward to the update. real promising. looks great. nice mechanic. W for jump though :( more music variety. I liked the level progression. It was hard but easy to get started understanding.
The pixel art and music was great! I also liked the pixel lights and darkness mode. I beat the game, but felt the final stage was too hard, and significantly harder than previous stages. I never had enough fire after throwing the torch at bosses, and defeated the second boss with 1-2 pixels of flame remaining.
(I played the post jam version)
the grphics are realy good, but the controls are a little rigid
I used to play a lot to Super Crate Box, so I had actually have fun to play a game with similar concept (and enemies). It took me some time to figure out that I had to keep fire alive, haha. But it was fun overall! And that epic guitar song starting while a boss spawns.. Ahah :sweat_smile: Had fun! Ty!
Great graphics! I really like how the music changes during the boss battle too! The movement also felt well refined, as well as the jumping too! Overall, this is a great jam entry!
not bad. great graphics. I'd add a picking up sound for the torch. worst thing I have is having to restart from level 1 every time you die. guess everyone forgets about these things in a jam :D
I played your post jam version. I liked the music and when the boss appear more than the first one. but the control scheme was way better for me. (up to jump and space to pick) fits a simple game more.
I WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON lol
Ey, I really like the ideas in there! I understand you borrowed assets and music? Not that there's anything wrong with that, I'd just have loved to see the game how you envisioned it :3
Great submission in any case!
Really nice work! Great graphics and music! There is something strange on jump, but still is a great game! Good job!
Could not pass the level 6, but had very fun while playing. Loved the art and music. There something strange with the jump but other than that great work! Congrats!
That was a really cool game! Unfortunately the window was too tall for my pc so I couldn't see the bottom part of the screen. Something I found confusing was that you had to pick up the fire that the enemies dropped when they died in order to replenish the fire but it would take away your health when you collided with it. Other than that good job.
A really nice game, I had more trouble keeping myself alive rather than the fire. It is a nice concept, but I wish the enemies had a bit more character, like what are they made off that they dissovle into fire once hit with a burning stick. The gameplay is really solid though and the music is nice too, especially the boss music is my jam! Well done!
Nice music and graphics. Had some trouble with the speed that player moves at especially on a keyboard.
Nice game! I like the graphics a lot :) However it is quite difficult, since the fire goes out so quickly and flames hurt you, when you do not hold the torch. That was a bit frustrating, however it was really fun to play :)
Very pleasant graphics and sounds/music. Really great job choosing on those, they go well together. Gameplay was fun but hard, for me! Player seemed stop more incrementally than I expected most of the time, so I kept running into enemies :laughing: (I was playing on keyboard)
Good game! Controls are weird (specially the jump and up arrow action) and the non-pixel-art particles maybe are too out of context :D
I played both versions and all of them were fun! I really liked the way you combined keeping the fire alive while attacking with it, +1 bonus point for encouraging the player to fight for more fire. The audio and graphics are great!
Good job! :)
Great game, the mechanics feels pretty fun, although u could not defeat the boss hahahah great entry, nice work :D
Man, I suck at this. Nicely done though.
Hey thanks for playing our game-- I played/rated yours as well on my stream. The VOD is here if you're interested:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/614262846
Interesting and fun torch throwing mechanic - was fun to play around with it. Platforming felt pretty good (the only think I could think of to improve is just a tiny bit higher jump).
Difficulty scaling is ok I think, though it might help if the flaming skull appeared earlier when fighting two bosses - I never had the patience to wait for it, rushing in and dying before it had a chance to offer replenishment.
Having a more intense music for boss fight was a nice touch, definitely felt that.
Really appreciated that death restarted the level, not the whole game. It gets a bit repetitive over time, so not having to go through everything was the right choice, kept me playing for much longer.
Overall a good game, was fun and felt pretty smooth to play.
I really like the concept of the game. The theme is quite nicely used here. I must admit I am having a lot of trouble killing the first boss haha. The Post-Jam version is quite AMAZING tho :D I really like how it is now much more new player friendly, the difficulty ramping up slowly, good thing you added the little hearts :)
Great entry ! :)
Neat game! I used the 1.0 version, and it was great on it's own, even without the update.
I like the idea or concept of the game. It was nice, simple and cool. Your gameplay is fun and smooth. AWSOME entry! Good luck on your game!
Great game! Well made and well polished! I really liked the graphics and audio that created a nice mood overall! Its main mechanic was fun with how you throw the fire and have to pickup the flames, but you have to be holding the fire to do so. It adds depth to the game. The movement felt smooth. One improvement I felt would be nice was a different way to throw for greater accuracy (maybe using the mouse, but you might be wanting to only use the keyboard for your control scheme so that's all good). Really good entry overall! Well done and great work!
Really cool game. I loved the art and aesthetics. The music was really awesome aswell. I think it was very challenging. though maybe thats what you intended? Personally, I had some issues with the controls. They didn't feel overly intuitive to me and I struggled to be able to use them fluidly. That might just be a me problem though haha. Maybe it could've used a little bit more juice when an enemy died like some screenshake, but overall really well done. Awesome submission bro! Good luck!
A nicely polished game for a jam! (I guess I played the post-jam version, but still) I suppose the main feedback I would have is just that I found the control layout weird. I ended up switching to a controller since that seemed to work, but jump and throw were backwards from what I instinctively pressed. So I didn't get too far. But yeah, honestly, really good game overall!
I found SPACE to jump and X to pick up in the updated version much harder to use than UP and SPACE in the original. But my preference is actually neither. It's rather to have 2 keys that are side-by-side: either Z and X or X and C. I imagine you're probably over it by this point. But my suggestion would be to bind Z as jump and X as action. Then in addition throw in extra jump bindings (undocumented) of SPACE AND UP (for those weirdos) and C (for people with European keyboard layouts).
Anyway, the game is super cool.
I love your game ! The concept is very cool. The timer is a little too short for me. ^^ I think everything has been said in the comments. :p Well done !
Well done! The game is quite fun and fits in with the theme really well. The graphics and audio is also nice. Grea t job!
I havnt tried the post jam version. But the controls make the game pretty much unplayable for me unfortunately. I have a keyboard without dedicated arrow keys so I have to hold the function key to access them, but when holding down function, spacebar does nothing. Accepting WASD input as well as arrow keys would have been nice. Graphics look really nice though and the music is great. Good job on the jam.
I played the post jam version, and like others had said, the controls feel weird. WASD works but X being the attack button makes it hard to use WASD, and I'm gonna assume most people are more used to using the left hand for movement, which most games do these days. ;D The enemy hitbox seems to stay active and continue moving after it got hurt, making it hard to not get hurt after attacking it. It's really impressive that you made this in such a short duration, and the fire mechanic is really cool :D
I like the extra challenge dark mode adds. I feel the enemies stay alive a little too long after they've been hit, I died a lot that way, but over all really fun, neat game
Fun game, I liked the challenge of using the flame as a weapon while having to be fast enough to not let it go out. The game was a bit too difficult (I played the jam version), there's not much time to avoid getting hit by the stronger enemies before your flame dies - though restarting from the current level would be a big help there. I like the overall mechanic though, good job!
The graphics were excellent. A bit of Castlevania vibe. A well-balanced platform game with great level designs. Though I was a bit confused at first about what to do next after receiving the torch, so I slided recklessly into the enemy and dropped dead xD. The collision and jumping don't feel satisfactory enough for me, you should not make the player jump too high compared to your character sprite. The music was great but got repetitive after some time (couldn't help though xD). That's all, near-perfect 9/10 for you ^^
The Music is way Too Good. Love the GamePlay Looks Polished Too. WellDone Keep it Up. :v:
The game is super good, graphics, music and level design, they keep you having a good time, Nice Job!
I like the concept, the throwing of the torch and collecting the scattered parts again was challenging. If you continue this as something post-compo, it'd be cool to have fewer buttons, right now Up to Exit, X to Capture / Throw etc, could all be combined with the or a key more conveniently placed near to space?